Curse

Banebow · Nov 14, 2005, 05:32 AM // 05:32

First, let me say that these are all my opinions, not engraved-in-stone facts. I'll suggest changes when I can, in reference to what I am discussing at the time.

Player versus Element gameplay:

Let us begin with solo farmer builds of any class. ArenaNet has said that they do not believe any class should be able to solo a high-level area. This makes sense when you think about it, Guild Wars is ment to be a team game. Now, steps have been taken to try and make farming less effective. This is the wrong approach. Instead, ANet should have taken steps to make the areas unable to be soloed. Let us examine the underworld. I have heard that ectoplasms used to drop 8-10 per run when the game was still new (I am unable to confirm this, underworld was not in my interists at that time) Now, as any player who goes down will be happy to tell you, getting 1 ectoplasm is a rare thing. And players still solo the area. Alarm bells going off in your head yet? Despite all of what I assume to be ANet's best efforts, underworld is still farmed.
The fix: Make dying nightmares a level 26 or level 28 enemy. Give them chillbanes, mantra of resolve, and rend enchantments. Raise drop rates to pre-solo levels. Reduce drops to 25% or less if a player is in an area solo (check for players dropping after entering an area) Possibly replace dropping players with henchmen.
Farming in groups of two or more has a less-clear fix. Nor is it clear if it needs one, since you become part of a team as soon as you join another player. Since most major farming seems to be done by solo players, leave team farming groups alone for now. If it becomes clear after the prevention of solo farmers that farming is still to big of an issue, then look into preventing it.

Monster AI. Not only the target of a recent update, but a gripe amongst PvE players for a long time now, monster AI seems to be working fairly well. . .for now. Spells such as shatter hex, energy surge, and cry of frustration did not send monsters into a mass panic. Symbol of wrath had monsters taking one to two hits, then moving away and coming back within a few seconds. I have heard horror stories about ignite arrows. If they are true, this should be a top priority for ANet to fix. Monster AI should not be so stupid that they run around aimlessly because of ignite arrows. The same applies to all one-hit area-of-effect spells.
The fix: confirm that one-hit AoE's are working appropriately. If they are, change nothing. If they are not, improve them so they do.

Money sinks. ANet added a good money sink in the form of keys. They also created what is, to my mind, a bad one in the form of obsidian (fissure) armor. Money sinks tend to work best as something usable, rather than armor. The armor will do nothing except encourage farming, specifically solo farming. Keys on the other hand, will soak up money from rich players who hope to get that rare sword they have been looking for, and new players can pick one up without much difficulty. A similar situation arises with dyes. Rich players who have beaten the game, amassing some wealth in the process, can sink lots of gold experimenting with new combinations, and poor players can still pick up that green dye to make their armor look cool. In neither of these cases does a player feel the "need" to farm, instead, the new player is happy that he can tell his friends "Dude, I got the uber green armor!" once he has played through the first two missions (at most, since green dye is cheap right now) while the rich player can tell his friends, who admire the blue on his armor, "Yep, it is a mix of black+sliver+black+blue on each piece". Both players feel they got something worthwhile for their money, and neither one had to spend time farming. With obsidian armor however, there is no "middle ground" either you are the farming elite, or you are the poor newb. The elite is happy, the newb goes out and learns about a solo warrior build. In these players cases, they either spent a long time farming, or soon will.
The fix: This fix hinges on the removal of solo farming. If ectoplasms are dropping at the suggested rate, and solo farming is impossible, the new player will learn that he needs to go down to underworld. He will then attempt to find a team, and will learn about aggro control and team interaction, as well as have the possibility to make new friends. In other words, the game moves closer to a team-oriented game. Add hair dyes and skin dyes, allow these dyes to be mixed up to four times (as another form of a money sink, these would draw even more gold from the economy, especially if the traders were givin a very large stock).

The last thing I believe is a problem with PvE is a lack of areas. Many players have "seen it all" and no longer wish to play through areas that are now monotonous to them. Sorrow's furnace and grenth's footprint helped this, and since chapter two is expected to include more areas, this is a problem with a fix on the way.

Player versus Player arenas based in Player versus Element areas:

These include all arenas, but the ones discussed here will be the ascalon arenas and yak's bend arenas.
Ascalon arena has a problem, and not a small one. Call them what you will, many players get themselves run to droknar's forge, purchase the highest armor in the game, capture an elite or two, and then head into ascalon arenas. I was in them today. This is no "we have better things to worry about" problem. Many players, myself included, had our first taste of PvP in these arenas (pre-searing does not really count) And guess what is happening to such players now? Thats right. They enter a PvP arena, happy and excited about a new aspect of the game and *bam* they come up against a ranger with poison arrow and droknar's armor. It takes them about 10 seconds to die, without hurting the opponent. So they try again. This time, it is an enemy warrior. *bam* he gets hit with a cleave + executioners strike + dismember spike, and is dead in 10 seconds. Again, without harming his opponent, who he was hitting for zero damage. You know what happens. The player turns away from PvP, either because they think it is unenjoyable or because they think they are not good at it and never will be. And the community ends up with a player who does not like PvP, and probably never will, because of an experience with what I call "griefers" (yes, the term can apply to something other than a comp arena runner).
The fix: Have a max AL restriction placed on each of the arenas, yak's bend and ascalon. Restrict skills to non-elites only, possibly to skills obtainable before lion's arch only. Place a limit on the max possible damage of a weapon to around the power of weapons you would find in that area. Also limit the maximum energy available from those weapons to local drop power.

Player versus Player combat:

Tomb of the primeval kings. Heated guild versus guild matches that last till "Victory or Death!" These are the pinnacles of peer versus peer competition. In these arenas, it is understood that if you go in, you have max armor, highly strong weapons, the best runes money(or faction) can buy, and so forth. These are also the areas of the game with the least problems. Skill wise, Guild Wars is incredibly well balanced, with no single strategy being able to dominate. Maps are balanced to give no one side a strong advantage, yet diverse enough to force groups to have a plan for them all. So what are the problems?
While the maps are diverse, there are only so many. While many guilds exist, few compete in guild versus guild battles. The "smurf" guilds (guilds that are composed of highly skilled players, who deliberately made a new guild. Reasons for this are unknown to me, besides perhaps faction farming.)
The fix on maps: Chapter two again looks to be the answer, with more PvP maps expected to come with its release.
The fix on guilds: Allow guild leaders to place a maximum and minimum of allowable rank differences. Let the rank 120 guilds limit themselves to fighting rank 250's and above. Let the rank 3,500 guilds limit their enemies to rank 2,000 and lower. But stop letting the rank 4,000 guilds fight the rank 20 ones.
The fix on "smurf" guilds: This is a hard one. You do not want to force players to wait a time period after leaving a guild to join another, as this harms legitimate players as well. I honestly do not know how to fix this problem.

Conclusions:

The PvE part of the game has some AI bugs within it, bugs that really need to be sorted out. ANet needs to make clear their stance on solo farming, and on why money sinks that require farming exist if farming is not intened. The PvE linked to PvP part needs to be modified to prevent griefers from destroying new players love of PvP. Pure PvP has the best balance, yet has problems that stem from repetitivness(lack of maps) and, again, griefers.

Thanks for spending the time to read this.

-A. Banebow

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Well, I am surprised my fingers are not bleeding yet. I am sure that I missed some things of importance in all three of these parts, but I hope the ones I spoke of will make you think, and consider what is happining to the game, and where it may be headed. Please add your thoughts!

BurningPants · Nov 14, 2005, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Maybe the forum should have a stickied topic for State of the Game Opinions.

No need to keep them seperate IMO.

ANNNYYYWAAAYYY, there are only a few things I want to refer to about your post:

Quote:

The last thing I believe is a problem with PvE is a lack of areas. Many players have "seen it all" and no longer wish to play through areas that are now monotonous to them. Sorrow's furnace and grenth's footprint helped this, and since chapter two is expected to include more areas, this is a problem with a fix on the way.

The fix may be on the way, but it isn't going to get here for a while. This problem still needs to be looked into, and soon.

Quote:

Tomb of the primeval kings. Heated guild versus guild matches that last till "Victory or Death!" These are the pinnacles of peer versus peer competition. In these arenas, it is understood that if you go in, you have max armor, highly strong weapons, the best runes money(or faction) can buy, and so forth. These are also the areas of the game with the least problems. Skill wise, Guild Wars is incredibly well balanced, with no single strategy being able to dominate. Maps are balanced to give no one side a strong advantage, yet diverse enough to force groups to have a plan for them all. So what are the problems?
While the maps are diverse, there are only so many. While many guilds exist, few compete in guild versus guild battles. The "smurf" guilds (guilds that are composed of highly skilled players, who deliberately made a new guild. Reasons for this are unknown to me, besides perhaps faction farming.)
The fix on maps: Chapter two again looks to be the answer, with more PvP maps expected to come with its release.
The fix on guilds: Allow guild leaders to place a maximum and minimum of allowable rank differences. Let the rank 120 guilds limit themselves to fighting rank 250's and above. Let the rank 3,500 guilds limit their enemies to rank 2,000 and lower. But stop letting the rank 4,000 guilds fight the rank 20 ones.
The fix on "smurf" guilds: This is a hard one. You do not want to force players to wait a time period after leaving a guild to join another, as this harms legitimate players as well. I honestly do not know how to fix this problem.

I think you forgot to talk about the whole Rank(personal) situation here in ToPK. I have suggested in the past that they should implement Rank based arenas where only players of a certain rank could compete in them. It would be set up much like ToPK except the HoH would not be reachable from here as well only players of the same or similar ranks would be participating.

Lucifer · Nov 14, 2005, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Player versus Player combat:
The "smurf" guilds (guilds that are composed of highly skilled players, who deliberately made a new guild. Reasons for this are unknown to me, besides perhaps faction farming.)
The fix on maps: Chapter two again looks to be the answer, with more PvP maps expected to come with its release.
The fix on guilds: Allow guild leaders to place a maximum and minimum of allowable rank differences. Let the rank 120 guilds limit themselves to fighting rank 250's and above. Let the rank 3,500 guilds limit their enemies to rank 2,000 and lower. But stop letting the rank 4,000 guilds fight the rank 20 ones.
The fix on "smurf" guilds: This is a hard one. You do not want to force players to wait a time period after leaving a guild to join another, as this harms legitimate players as well. I honestly do not know how to fix this problem.

-A. Banebow

Smurf guilds are not made because of faction farming, since the good players already have everything unlocked and faction is useless for them, besides, if your in a guild for less then 2 weeks, u earn less faction then normal, and i believe that high ranked guilds get a bigger faction reward for winning in gvg then lesser ranked guilds.
They are made because they want to play without being stigmatised like: hey its the people from 'insert famous guild here' you guys are crap because 'insert stupid comment here'
Maybe there are more reasons for this, but i dont know em

About the difference in ranks in some gvg's, do u really want to wait for five hours until a guild in your 'rank range' starts with gvg before u can fight? or do u want to face lesser/higher ranked guilds in the meanwhile and have the fun of playing (u said yourself that GvG isnt used by many guilds so this is a problem) and A-net has already solved this by making it so that if u lost to a highranked guild (while being in a lowranked guild) u lose a very small amount of rating and the winning guild only wins a little bit of rating, but in the meanwhile u had to GvG.
So i dont think theres a problem with that

Banebow · Nov 14, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningPants

Maybe the forum should have a stickied topic for State of the Game Opinions.

No need to keep them seperate IMO.

Since this does not deal with streamlineing the focus of guild wars (or those other topics) I figured a new one was best. I'll keep an eye on it though, incase the mods decide to move it without warning

Quote:

Originally Posted by BurningPants

I think you forgot to talk about the whole Rank(personal) situation here in ToPK. I have suggested in the past that they should implement Rank based arenas where only players of a certain rank could compete in them. It would be set up much like ToPK except the HoH would not be reachable from here as well only players of the same or similar ranks would be participating.

I considered discussing rank, however, I believe it is a necessary evil if you will. When a rank 6 group of guild mates gets together and needs to find one more player, the ability to pick the players who are more likely to be good is a boon. Now, rank 1 players may be just as good or even better than the rank 6 one you just picked up, but your chances are better by taking the rank 6. I don't like rank-based arenas because that splits the PvP community even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucifer

About the difference in ranks in some gvg's, do u really want to wait for five hours until a guild in your 'rank range' starts with gvg before u can fight? or do u want to face lesser/higher ranked guilds in the meanwhile and have the fun of playing (u said yourself that GvG isnt used by many guilds so this is a problem) and A-net has already solved this by making it so that if u lost to a highranked guild (while being in a lowranked guild) u lose a very small amount of rating and the winning guild only wins a little bit of rating, but in the meanwhile u had to GvG.
So i dont think theres a problem with that

Of course I do not wish to wait five hours, but neither do I wish my rank 3,000 guild to fight iQ. We would, simply put, be dead in under 5 minutes. We learn nothing from this sort of combat, besides the fact that we cannot beat iQ. Since we know this already, we in effect waste time looking for a match. Not to mention that it is anything but a challenge for iQ, who waste time with a pointless fight.

I knew about reduced faction for the first two weeks of guild membership, but since I could think of no other reason to do such a pointless thing, I suggested that

Lucifer · Nov 14, 2005, 08:20 AM // 08:20

actually, u learn alot by fighting e.g. iQ, u learn how they play and maybe u can improve, and u only lose like a tiny bit of rating, so theres no prob there

KelvinC · Nov 15, 2005, 09:42 AM // 09:42

I think the grouping in the tomb is a problem. It discourages casuals to play the Tomb. Many agrue tomb should be only be played with guildmates. However there are lots of small inactive guild and many people just want to play the Tomb and GvG, when they want to, anytime anywhere.

For the Tomb, there should be a better grouping system that is cross-district and efficient.

For the casual GvG, there should be a RANDOM unrated GvG

Hanok Odbrook · Nov 15, 2005, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Greetings! You generally hit the nail on the head with your post. Some of the problems you mentioned I have seen as well, and have been a part of the game since the final beta weekend.

To help clarify a couple of points: I believe Smurf Guilds are created to allow the true guild to work their way up the ladder faster by being able to defeat the smurf they created rather than having to engage in genuine combat. I believe they also do it to make experimenting with different PvP builds easier.

Anet has stated that they don't object to farming in particular. In fact they have stated in the past that "item hunting" as they call it is part of the replayability that they built into the game. This is one of the reasons that many players (myself included) objected to the many drop nerfs they put into the game over the spring and summer. What Anet clearly doesn't like are people who use bots to farm for items and then sell virtual game items on ebay and the likes. Some of the changes to the game (like the chests and keys) have been in effort to foil the bot farmers.

But you are correct. Anet should not make changes to the game that would lessen the drops, as item hunting is part of the draw for the game, and plentiful drops are needed for the casual gamer (a major player type for which this game was originally designed).

In a post I created for game suggestions some time ago, I too made mention of the fact that they need to balance the type of items that people are able to acquire without making it feel like we need to farm to get them. I also suggested that level requirements be placed on armor and weapons, so overpowered characters cannot compete in the lower level arenas. Unfortunately, Anet still does not see this as a big problem - they believe that players using such characters will soon level their way out of being able to participate in the arenas. However, I still have not seen that happen to any satisfaction. Even when I take a level 10 build witht he best armor and weapons I have gotten just by exploring the Ruins of Ascalon area, I still experience the same thing you do. When someone takes a Level 3 character to Droknar's, they still have a long time to be able to compete in the low level arenas before they have to worry about leveling out.

Hanok Odbrook
Real Millennium Group Guild
http://www.realmillenniumgroup.com/guild.html
Truth * Knowledge * Peace

Dax · Nov 15, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I'm sorry this is not meant to be a flame, but more of a observation. I notice alot more 'state of the game' and 'state of the economy' threads with huge diatribes about what should be done about the state of the game.

I can't help but wonder that this is more done out of lack of things to do than anything else. I can recall when the game first launched, everyone was for the most part pretty happy. Then people were more than willing to exploit the gameplay mechanics to get ahead. Now that everyone has rushed through the game with 3 or 4 characters people wonder why things are so outta joint.

For the most part I played had fun, started to get frustrated with the whole ecomomy/ running for armor thing, so I took a break. Now I pop on every so often and play, and I gotta tell you the game takes on a whole new meaning.
This game is better played casual, leave the socio-economic philosiphies for other games.

Bored, Frustrated? Take a break, wait for chapter 2.

Banebow · Nov 16, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I can't help but wonder that this is more done out of lack of things to do than anything else. I can recall when the game first launched, everyone was for the most part pretty happy.

First, I admit that I have done just about everything there is to do. I have everything unlocked, and I am only casualy interisted in PvP (after seeing the attitudes from the top guilds. Not all, but many, are insanely elitist.). However, I consider my views more from experience with the game than lack of content. You are correct, when the game first launched, I loved it. It was (and still is) up there on my list of "best games I have played". However, as time passed, I came to see what I think are problems. Many of those problems, you see above.

The one that really gets me, and I keep coming back to whenever I consider what I view to be the games problems is this.

ArenaNet continues to attempt to make solo farming less effective. ArenaNet continues to make attempts to stop monks and other classes from soloing the underworld. ArenaNet does nothing to counteract the loss of gold this creates.

A company able to create 450 balanced skills that can be combined in a near-infinite number of ways can stop a monk from soloing the underworld. Yet they don't. They reduce the drops, they add an excuse for an enchantment remover. Either you think it is fine to solo, or it is not. No more half-baked fixes, it is time to take a stand and back it up with action. Yet they don't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Bored, Frustrated? Take a break, wait for chapter 2.

Thanks for the advice, I have been seriously considering cutting back on GW, perhaps I'll give WoW or CoH/CoV a try, just pop on for some of my guild's events.

FFF_WarRaven · Nov 16, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Myself, only lately have gotten into a little bit of pvp, very little, and yeah i was one of them that got raped in many arenas due to the droks run etc, it sucks because i donot enjoy pvp as much as i do pve i really could care less about proving how big my private sword is....

I read a lot of books that deal with magic adventure and the like etc, i enjoyed the pve but now it's starting to get stale, as you say "seen it all", altho i have not unlocked half of the things i want or need, i started solo monking about a month before they started to nerf it, and lemme tell ya it was great i could get a few ectos for money, and other things and enjoy the game without all the crap a pug could bring or if i just wasn't feeling in the mood to play with anyone. People say the solo monk ruined the economy. I say not really, cause at the that point not a lot of people knew or were doing it to the extent of it now, but it gave casual players another way to play.

I think the ebay thing is crap, and anet is dealing with it like crap, ya know the kind that sits on the sidewalk and people just ignore it, cause they don't want to step in !@#$, then again i dunno what goes on behind anet's closed doors but why haven't they grabbed someone at ebay and said hey this is against the law, your selling our property, which is what the sweat farmers are doing, hmmm 500 hours to get that 15^50, or the xxxx amout of ectos needed for armor ...that only LOOKS better, or $9.95 outta my wallet ...what's easier? That is something that should have been taken care of already, yet we the players pay for it, one way...heh or another.

Just like some corporate prick loses money and we pay for it, so we take the loss and they don't.

There are so many problems and bugs and things that are so more important to get fixed, yet we suffer with nerf after nerf after nerf, hidden as a fix, or a so called update.

We need a guild storage, and a nice pvp guild PRATICE AREA, where we can take the time to really look at our skills and see the effects, rather than running right into CA and die 50 times before catching on to something, not that it's always like that but ya get my meaning.

The amout of updates are outragious....why not wait till you have a few put together, let the public know before hand somehow, and then implement it, rather than having 50 updates, how about 5 or less...or is this because of trying not to turn off the 56k'rs? hmmm do these people even exzist anymore?lol j/k

IMHO the solo farmers didn;t hurt the economy, here's why, getting ectos, selling them etc, doesn't really make a differance, because they get used in some way, either sold or used for fissure armor, putting it all back in the economy anyway, most players if really needed the cash they could still sell ecto to the trader for a still excellent chunk of change.

What hurts the economy is thoses few that hold onto mass amounts of such things including gold, now it is a player driven economy, but is it a player vs player or player vs trader economy?

I just see it as the more you have the more you can or want to spend, if i had half a mill and all the ectos and shards i needed i'd have fissure armor, and back into the system it goes, but instead i have to farm and grind and farm and grind in order to have enough to put back into the economy for the things i want.

Anyway this turned out much longer than i really wanted, but i feel they really need to get rid of problems like ebay farmers, botters and the like, they say they are listening, but since the start of the game, i haven't felt that way, i work 2 jobs and some freelance on the side, and i still have time to spend with family, playing games, and reading many many of these forums everyday, and prolly know a lot more about whats going on in the community than ...err well thats presumptious of me nvm.

Anyway. Random thoughts from behind the black shroud.

p.s. i'd install the spell checker but i can't on this machine ( work ) so lay off the stupid spelling replys ty.

:::End Transmission:::

Dax · Nov 16, 2005, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

First, I admit that I have done just about everything there is to do. I have everything unlocked, and I am only casualy interisted in PvP (after seeing the attitudes from the top guilds. Not all, but many, are insanely elitist.). However, I consider my views more from experience with the game than lack of content. You are correct, when the game first launched, I loved it. It was (and still is) up there on my list of "best games I have played". However, as time passed, I came to see what I think are problems. Many of those problems, you see above.

The one that really gets me, and I keep coming back to whenever I consider what I view to be the games problems is this.

ArenaNet continues to attempt to make solo farming less effective. ArenaNet continues to make attempts to stop monks and other classes from soloing the underworld. ArenaNet does nothing to counteract the loss of gold this creates.

A company able to create 450 balanced skills that can be combined in a near-infinite number of ways can stop a monk from soloing the underworld. Yet they don't. They reduce the drops, they add an excuse for an enchantment remover. Either you think it is fine to solo, or it is not. No more half-baked fixes, it is time to take a stand and back it up with action. Yet they don't.

I agree I think they've gone about the farming issues wrong no doubt. I just feel that farming for cash is not-needed. I like to farm, interact with people through trade myself, but GW just doesn't have a system that makes it worthwhile. Seems like every aspect is designed so that people don't have to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Banebow

Thanks for the advice, I have been seriously considering cutting back on GW, perhaps I'll give WoW or CoH/CoV a try, just pop on for some of my guild's events.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to bash or flame. GW is a fun game, but there are alot of games out that are fun also, and they are alot have been discounted a bit. I wasn't a super big fan of CoH, but I'm tempted to try CoV. GW is still fun just to pop on and play tho.